Forums

Some cards have effects which apply in different steps, and also text saying to block or discard them. This topic is about where those cards exist in between activating them for the first effect, and applying the second, later, effect. This matters for at least three reasons:
1. Other cards which care whether they're the "only card in your hand".
2. Cards which let you discard other cards from hand as part of their effect.
3. When you can and can't recover the card with "You are Focused" (although I would like to think this is actually entirely irrelevant).

There's two ways I can see to interpret the situation.
A) When you play the card, you immediately gain all of the effects and follow all of the instructions. Some of those effects don't have any impact until a later step, but that's fine.
B) When you play the card, you immediately apply the first effect which is relevant when you play it. However, the card then becomes stalled waiting for the second effect to become relevant. In that time the card is still considered to be in your hand, because you haven't reached the instruction to block/discard it yet.

(A), as far as I can tell, works completely fine and has no issues associated with it. It requires accepting that an effect from a card can still apply even though the card was played earlier and has moved elsewhere, but there's really no reason to have a problem with that. There's also clear precedent. A effect that appears in a white "consequence" box is applied in step 4A, but the impact of that is relevant in step 4B. Denhom's "Determination" must be discarded during the "Gear Up" step, but clearly the or still apply during the Result step. (A) is the favourable interpretation with respect to other cards that want to be the "only card in your hand", and this is a good thing because those cards in general are quite bad and the effect is hard enough to apply as it is.

(B) on the other hand seems to me extremely problematic and unnecessary. However, I'm forced to take it seriously because it seems to be the official stance taken in this thread:
https://the7thcitadel.seriouspoulp.com/en/forum/topic/10382/timing-of-use-satchel-card-hand-card/page/1/312494/#312494

The problems with (B) come from cards which discard other cards from your hand as part of their effect/cost. According to this interpretation, there doesn't appear to be anything stopping me from, for example, playing Endurance to get -3 on a check, then (since I've yet to apply "ignore -X" and the card is still stalled in my hand waiting) discarding Endurance to Brooks' "Save your energy", and getting -4 while only ever discarding the one card. I don't want to be able to do this sort of thing, but if the card is still in hand I can't see any reason why I can't.

Further, what happens to the card if it's discarded before finishing applying its effects? Do the effects still happen? If so, why did the card need to stay in hand in the first place, if the effects could have still happened from the discard pile the whole time? Or are the effects interrupted and I can't apply the second effect in the later step? If that's the case though, what happens if the card was going to be blocked? Logically that should be interrupted as well, have I now got out of paying the cost??

Also, how does Denhom's "Determination" work in this case? The discard is quite explicitly first and in an earlier step. I have to assume it's in my discard pile when the effect is applied.

Finally, this interpretation seems at odds with the rulebook page 18, which in its description of both "block" and "discard" says that you move the card "immediately". I get that the point is you haven't "reached" that instruction yet while the card is stalled waiting to apply another effect, but it's quite unintuitive.

All told, I think interpretation (B) unnecessarily opens a massive can of worms that could have been entierly avoided with interpretation (A). I would like however some official word on this since I can't reasonably continue believing (A) while official comments in other threads imply (B).

I have already answered a similar question on BGG: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3264056/article/43944331

Hi

Thanks for the response, but this answer is only going as far as telling me what I already knew. My main purpose was to argue that it should be reconsidered. But, if I accept it as given, the implications still have some uncertainty that I feel is not answered by this reply.

Can I confirm then that I can discard card A to pay for another ability on card B, even though I have already activated an ability on card A which will result in card A being discarded, such as described in the example with Endurance? Thereby paying the cost of both cards with just card A.

Can I get clarification on what happens if a card is discarded (either to another card's ability, or to text in the consequence step) before all of the effects have been applied? Can the remaining effects still be applied?

If the answer to the above is that remaining effects cannot be applied, does this also apply to instructions such as blocking the card?

Can I confirm that Denhom's and Arthen's "Determination" is still discarded during the gear up step, despite that being inconsistent with the statement that " A played card is discarded (if indicated) as soon as all its effects have been used, or otherwise at the end of the complete action resolution sequence."?

Your proposal to reconsider this rule clarification has already been studied by the author before. But the other solutions generated other problems. The choice is therefore the one stated by Sarah.


Sarah's last sentence in her rule gives an implicit instruction (which she confirmed to me): the discarding of a played card ONLY occurs during this timing (end of effects or 4B step). Voluntary discarding from another card is prohibited.


This case is not possible*. According to Sarah's rule, the played card cannot be absent with its effect not yet applied. The discard arrives after the application of the effects or in 4B step (after ).


Not applicable.


These 2 cards have a text that applies in priority to Sarah's rule, as required by the golden rule (the card takes precedence over the rule).
* In the other answer, you talked about Consequence step : if a ask to discard, you discard. But I think a effect should be write before the "Discard the card" sentence, no ? Which imply that you keep the Consequence in memory until the effect is finish. ==> If you have a specific case, please create a topic : there's maybe an exception but the rule stay valid.

I hope that it's more clear now.

Hi Firebird

Thanks for the detailed response. What you're saying does however raise a few questions. Sorry to harp on, but it wasn't any of the answers I was expecting, so the questions I'm now asking are entirely new issues.

"Blacksmith" A0065 has no instruction to discard it, so fails the "(if indicated)" condition in Sarah's statement. Can I therefore play Blacksmith to save 2 energy on a check, then play Brooks' "Save your energy" and discard "Blacksmith", even though the second effect on Blacksmith is still pending?

Page 19 of the rulebook says "You can discard cards from your hand into your discard pile at any time". Does what you're saying overrule that statement on page 19 and prevent me from voluntarily discarding the card from my hand until the effects have been resolved?

Am I able to voluntarily decline to gain the pending effects from an ability in order to block/discard a card sooner?

+

According to my understanding, we can't decide to decline an effect. We only may apply a null effect instead.
==> That's make the card in a "played" state until the last step of theses effects is over. At this moment, it's time to discard/block this card if asked, or to return it to a "non-player, available" state.
I hope this use of states isn't too confuse but it's the best way I've found to explain.

Your example/
- I play Blacksmith (Image of the card ) : I apply -2 then the card stay in my Hand as a "played" card, waiting for the "Result" step.
- I play Brooks' "Save your energy" (Image of the card ) : I apply -1 then, as the effect is finished, I apply the last sentence as a cost. Here, IMO, you must choose an "non-played" card. "Blacksmith" is not an option. However, "Save your energy" is now an "non-played" card so you can discard it (or another non-played card).
- At the Result step, you may not use Blacksmith for its conversion effect. Now, Blacksmith has the state of "non-played" card.

Another example could be the sames cards played in another order /
- I play Brooks' "Save your energy" (Image of the card ) : I apply -1 then, as the effect is finished, I apply the last sentence as a cost. Here, I may choose Blacksmith.
- After that, there's no Blacksmith card in my Hand to reduce the cost of the Action.


IMO, the rule could be :
"You can discard non-played cards from your hand into your discard pile at any time".
It' a rule to allow the player to manage his hand's size. Nothing more.
So, yes, the Sarah's text add to you a discarding optimization, but it's not in conflit with the rule (as I completed it).

Your questions push me to my analytical limits.
And, I'm sorry, but SP is overwhelmed by work for the next KS campain.

Thanks Firebird.

The resulting rules system seems self consistent and manageable to me now.

I feel compelled to point out that the inability to discard (a played) Blacksmith to Save your energy in that situation is something which nobody could possibly figure out from reading the rulebook as written. But it's not otherwise a problem of any significance.

I'd suggest if there's ever a later edition of the rulebook to make the state a card is in while it has been played-but-not-resolved explicit, give it a name, make it clear that it's still considered "in your hand" at this time, and actually write down what can and can't cause it to leave your hand.

Something similar to purse cards, which are SELECTED, could be applied here. Except you can select it when applicable. Selected skill cards can't be discarded or manipulated by other effects. After you resolve the effect, it is either
[selected] unselect this
[selected] discard this
[selected] block this
[selected] discard another card,
etc.